Chapter+12

**Chapter 12**
**#1 Curriculum of Talk** //“Yet talk, like reading and writing, is a major motor – I could even say the major motor – of intellectual development.” (p. 226) This talk curriculum is given significant focus and is grown in a classroom with a gradual release of responsibility using the talk continuums on p. 227. Where have you and your students fallen on any of the “At First” –> “Later” continuums? What has been the resulting impact on student achievement?//

//I love it "talk is rarely taught". We as teachers talk, we don't like to release "control". I model and demonstrate "curriculum talk". I ,sadly, have not given the children to practice "their talk". What a great way to assess. Wonderful way for me to create lessons that will teach my children to carry on a conversation about their reading. This is a minnilesson in the making for Unit One. The at firsts and laters on pg. 227 will be me letting go and let my children.//

//Margaret Fox﻿//

In first grade, I tend to use the "At First" talking about read aloud stories. Hearing something read fluently and expressively is an important part of being able to comprehend the story. Students will have time to pause and respond at some parts that interest them. If the whole class reads the text together chorally they really benefit from hearing me as well as their peers read. The "later" part we have partnered them up by reading level or by interest and have them discuss their books either page by page, or by character's feelings or predict what will happen next etc. The expectations need to be very clear on how to listen to a partner and this needs to be established early on. They also learn from you by being a mentor and coach to them during these discussions. We really haven't documented the increase or decrease of student achievement yet but know that the more a child reads the stronger a reader he or she becomes. Ronda

Like Ronda, I teach first grade and often find myself at the “At First” level of the continuum. I, too, do not have record of students’ achievement in this area. From my observation though I know that talk “roams among many assorted points” (page 227) during a class discussion. I’m sure that student achievement will increase as I teach them how to be better at talking. I agree that “talk is rarely taught” (page 226). I’m really excited to teach my students how to have more accountable talk after read-alouds using a strategy I learned at the Homegrown Institute this summer. The teacher places a same-colored cube to make a train / tower for each connected comment made by the students. If it’s unrelated the teacher asks the child how it relates as she holds up a different colored cube (indicating that it doesn’t connect and is starting a new train / tower). Sara Sabourin At First... is like how I respond to most of these questions. It is how I was taught, with limited engagement with others. I feel most of what I have done in the classroom is "student's talk is scaffolded by us, as teachers". I read aloud, I try to ask questions that are directly related to the reading strategies we are working, I would get limited responses, and then move on. Reading workshop is fairly new to me, and so far from what I've seen, good teachers get good results, no matter what method they use. I think it will take some time for me to try to assess how I am doing with developing how my students talk and interact about their reading. Especially with a new grade level and knowing that not all my students have been exposed to readers workshop. The deep conversations about reading makes perfect sense to me, and I have to wonder why it wasn't a part of my teaching before. I see myself at a first grade level with needing to teach expectationson how to listen, respond, and interact. Etiqutte is so important in my classroom that I see the lessons about how we react to ideas we disagree with in thoughtful and kind ways as being important to classroom management also. I guess that is "my card" that I'm throwing out about accountability. Teaching my students how to have deeper conversations about reading inorder for them to grow as readers also, helps them and myself be accountable for what we do during workshop/class time. Mike

Chapter 12 from Bobbi Friend #1 – On page 226 Lucy tells us that, “In schools, talk is sometimes valued and sometimes avoided, but – and this is surprising – talk is rarely taught.” The continuum on page 227 shows us just how important teaching talk is if we would like to move our students into independent talk where the partnerships can truly work effectively and reap valuable rewards. The first point, moving from talking about texts that we read aloud to talking about texts they read independently, has worked well for me in the past. Students are able to discuss what they are reading with a partner or small group. The second point, moving from talk that is scaffolded by us to talk that is student-led, has also worked for me in the past. Students work independent of my instruction when talking with partners. The third point, moving from discussing books that have been read at school to books that have been read at home, is not something that I have done up to this point. I would like to have students do more of this type of talk this year, especially since they will not have as much time to read in class as I have had in the past. Due to my short amount of time with each group of students, I will definitely need to have them discuss outside reading with their partners. The next step, the thinking happens primarily through talk and moving into the thinking and idea-building happens through talking and writing, seems to be a very powerful point. Due to the accountability issues involved with reader’s workshop, I would like to use more of their writing about their talking as an assessment piece in my classroom. I will not have them do a great deal of writing, but just a summary of their discussion or even just a sticky note or two will be useful for informal assessing of the work they are doing. The next point, reading is interspersed with talk and moving to talk comes after a larger chunk of reading or at the end of the text means that they do more synthesizing and summarizing, is very important for what I am doing in my classroom. I will use the partner work more as a tool for synthesizing and summarizing at the end of books and as an assessment tool. Finally, moving from the talk roaming among many assorted points to the talk lingering over an extended idea or two, is where I struggled to get my students last year. Their talk was not lingering, but rather like a popcorn discussion so I need to focus on teaching students to linger and probe an extended idea or two.

This has to be one of my favorite chapters! Last year, during Reading Workshop, I made several notes to focus on Chapter 12 from Day One because as we went through it in January, February or March, I kept saying things like, "This would have been great to imbed some of these lessons and strategies into my read alouds and such so that by the time we got here my kids would have known some of this already." Exposure is everything. Now, that being said...I have done a pretty good job with the At First vs. Later Continuum that is outlined on page 227. I did provide time for students to do partner sharing and talk about the texts they read independently. I did not do so well in the school to home connection with books last year. I did provide time for my students to write about what they read. But I would like to teach them to linger over an idea and expand the conversation on a particular subject about a story this year. It will all begin during my read aloud time. This is a time of day where discussion between peers should take place and I never let that happen during read alouds. It was why I was kicking myself last year when we finally discussed chapter 12. This year will be different. Keri Cooper


 * Like Mike, Sara, and Ronda mentioned, our read-aloud periods are ‘At First’, but then after some scaffolding something really cool happens. My students are able to lead the talk when they are able to see the relevance the text has in relation to their own lives and situations. As stated on page 226, **// “The great Russian psychologist Lev Vygotsky helped us realize that by giving our students practice in talking with others, we give them frames for thinking on their own,” //** I would have to say that with more involvement during reading periods, students are more capable of word recognition and comprehension of the text. **


 * M.J. **

**#2 Your experience with book talks?** // How does it go for you in book clubs? You may not be part of an intentional club. If not, think about any staff book study conversations or times when you’ve talked with someone who read the same book as you. How did the conversation work? Was it similar to “Lucy and colleagues” before Tony called them out (p. 233)? Or have you experienced conversations that go deep and linger on one line of inquiry? // // This book study has taught me to "linger. Book talks I have been part of were face value, Often I would be quiet because there would be a phrase or sentence that caused me to ponder and make a note. Often the studies were too vague, no depth. This study during Face to Face we applied our reading to where we are and where will be going based on this study. I am part of another book talk. It is "Soul Sisters". We are a unique, diverse group of ladies who meet September to June twice a month. The talks are based on our lives in the real world. WE DIG IN. // // Margaret Fox﻿ //

Both of the book clubs I have been a member of discussed questions from the back of the book, which can be an option for student book clubs in the beginning or as journal prompts. For one club, this was the only thing we did. The self-appointed leader read the question and others shared their thoughts. We didn’t really elaborate on each other’s thoughts or even question them. Once a silence settled in the room, even for a few moments, the next question was asked. It felt like a race, and if you weren’t ready to speak fast enough then you didn’t get to give your thoughts for the question.

The second club still discussed questions, but we spent more time discussing the reasoning behind our answers and opinions. I can even remember questioning the responses of others at times during this club, something that wasn’t done in the other book club. The conversation seemed much deeper than it ever got when questions were just rapid fired to get them answered so people could move on.

Stephanie Cooper

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I like the way in the face to face we experienced the laying of cards. In a church group we read books—we don’t consider ourselves a book club—but parts of our meeting are run like that. But we do both. We throw out ideas sometimes with no comment. Making sure each gets a chance tospeak. Sometimes with the guiding ofour leader idea do get pushed. I have been thinking of introducing this idea. The laying of the cards respects bothways—the laying cards gets everyone’s ideas out. The twist is that now we push and expand the chosen idea. KDN ======

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The book studies our staff has been involved in have been a positive experience for me. We read certain chapters and then discuss them if we choose to get involved. This doesn't put stress on the ones who don't want to share. Some staff members benefit from just listening to new ideas or thoughts and others who join in can extend thoughts or bounce ideas off of each other to take it to another level. They also have meet after this to put some of the ideas into practice and support each other that way too. Ronda ======

I have been a part of a group for church, also, where we have read various books and discussed them. It seems to me that the way it usually goes is that we start with giving our initial thoughts or comments on a particular chapter or part of the book. We go around the circle or at least all give some sort of feedback. After that we continue to "go deeper" into one part or topic brought up by a group member. It seems to be a variation of the "laying out our cards". As in most groups, there are some people who are quieter and only offer a comment or two and there are others who seem to have a lot to say. Interestingly, we all like each other and are comfortable with each other whether we say alot or not. Kari Bonnema

Based on my experiences from reading and discussing a book in a staff meeting, I often feel that we are like Lucy and her colleagues before Tony called them out. I feel frustrated when one person “lays out her card” and then another one loosely ties to it or goes off on an unrelated tangent. I tend to be a peace-keeper in conversations making sure everyone’s voice is heard. But like Stephanie mentioned, it feels like a “race” to get your thoughts in. At times, our principal sets up a structure so we do not comment on each other, but simply state our opinion. I’m thinking it would be a good idea to have one person put an idea out there and everyone must comment / question that one idea. Then the next person lays out another idea or simply just says, “What are we on about?” like they did on page 234. Sara Sabourin

Book studies have always felt like a lead weight wrapped around my neck and I was happy just to keep my head above the water. Leader/admin lead, with the "Read Chaper X and we will discuss at our next staff meeting." Generally, the books had little interest to me and seemed to be a product of the last and greatest seminar that someone attended. We met in groups, put ideas on a chart paper, posted and got our next assignment. How boring and non-productive. I don't want my class to look like that so I feel blessed to have my introduction to this text and study. I get to work on something I'm invested in, I get to respond to the questions that I'm interested in, and I can read and relate to the thoughts of others on the questions that aren't my first choice, which opens my thinking to new ideas. After re-reading Sara's comment about peace-keeper, it seems to be an issue I can relate too also. Trying to keep everyone engaged,kind and focused with adults helps me think ahead of how I will deal with our book talks and partnerships in my class. Mike Chapter 12 from Bobbi Friend #2 – The book club that I have been involved in is a small group from our church where we read and discuss certain books from the Bible. Our interaction is extremely deep and meaningful, where we nudge each other and question our thinking every step of the way. Tony told the group from Teacher’s College, “You were reporting ideas you already had, but you weren’t growing ideas through your talk.” In our study, we are not reporting ideas because none of us is sure about what we have read and our interpretations are often in stark contrast to those of another member of our group. We do grow our ideas, listening to the responses of others, adding on to their ideas or observations, and questioning one another constantly. We definitely linger over one idea and probe certain aspects of our reading, just as we would like our students to do. I wish I could bring our group into my classroom and model one of our discussions for my class so they could be immersed in that deep conversation. The best book talks I've had have been with MY peers at Reading Workshop, or even at the Face-to-Face meeting we had with regards to this book study. I will work on incorporating this more over the coarse of the year...growing ideas...with my students. Should be interesting. I can't wait to see how far I can push second graders! Keri Cooper


 * Personally, I have never belonged to a ‘book club’ because I seem to have differing ideas about books and do not wish to relive those days from elementary/middle school where some teachers made me feel that my interpretation was WRONG! I would be sure to never let a student feel that way. I might say; “Hey, you bring up an interesting point.” Or “Yeah, I can see how you came to that conclusion.” **


 * On page 233, Tony demonstrates how a group leader can nudge members to ‘talk back’ to each other. Book Talks or group discussions of any nature need to have a format and a leader to keep things on track in order for it to be a success. I still can't believe we talked for 35 minutes about listening. **


 * M.J. **

I like the way in the face to face we experienced the laying of cards. In a church group we read books—we don’t consider ourselves a book club—but parts of our meeting are run like that. But we do both. We throw out ideas sometimes with no comment. Making sure each gets a chance to speak. Sometimes with the guiding of our leader idea do get pushed. I have been thinking of introducing this idea. The laying of the cards respects both ways—the laying cards gets everyone’s ideas out. The twist is that now we push and expand the chosen idea. KDN

**#3 Expectations for Talk** // What do you believe about students’ ability to do this type of thinking and conversing described in chapter 12? What from the chapter seems feasible for the students you work with and what seems impractical? Briefly state your beliefs about students and their talk and your current expectations for the students you will work with next year. // // I believe my students can do anything as long as I believe. This year my theme song is "If You Believe". I know that there is a separation of church and state but...I'm on a journey this year. For those reading this, the song is from the sound track "Prince of Egypt. The words are about a journey into the unknown. I'm using this song as my mantra. I will be the mentor and demonstrator. There are bullits that will be posted. During the first month we will practice as a whole and with partners. I will be teaching from one book, my read aloud. I will talk, using the bullits pg. 242. I will move it on to bullits on pg. 245. It is my goal to lead them to writing these thoughts in their Journals to be shared during partner groups and conferring. // // Margaret Fox ﻿ //

To be honest, I’m not sure what to expect this year. Any input from first grade or split teachers would be greatly appreciated. While I have a split class, only 8 of those students will be second grade students. The other 19 will be first grade students and I no idea what they will be capable of doing. Two ideas I highlighted that I thought would work well are posting “starter phrases” to get thinking moving (231) and having students retell yesterday’s reading to give them a running start on talking (232). These seemed very manageable even with the youngest of students. I especially liked the retelling as a way to get students thinking since retelling is a skill students at first grade are developing and one in which second grade student are assessed. I would like to add icons to the “starter phrases” to make the chart more child friendly. Something I don’t see happening with the age and background of my students is having them talk with each other about texts read at home. I don’t think most young students would retain the information they would like to discuss and may even forget why a particular sticky note was inserted into their book. Stephanie Cooper

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I do think this is possible. I believe easier with students that are older rather than younger. Students love to mimic grown up activities. So sold the correct way they would be willing to lay out ideas and then push them. ======

The book mark idea from page 242 is grand. It makes pushing the idea and expand ones “repertoire”. KDN
In Kindergarten it is easy to get the students to talk about read alouds. They all raise their hand and want to give their thoughts or reactions. That is a part of the age that I love... their enthusiasm! However, it is easy to get off track. I seem to do a lot of redirecting the conversation when they get off task.

We also make a lot of books in class. Sometimes each child has a copy of the same book. Other times they add part of the story to their page, so each child has a book that is a little bit different, and unique to them, or their interests/ family. When they are done making their book, I have them read it to themselves first. After that, I have them go to the rug and read it to a partner. After they read it, I ask them to discuss it with their partner. Often that is when the talk goes to other things. It may be that I am not "right there", I'm often still helping other students finish up their book. However, I do expect that with more time and encouragement, their talk could continue and stay on task. Kari Bonnema

Stephanie, on p.245 there is a list of comments to use for book talks and converastions. At the face-to-face meeting someone suggested makeing cue cards for the students to hold up for the teacher to respond to during the reading. I think if you modeled the questions and then made the cards and modeled how to use them, this would be another chance to embed these ideas and this language into your lessons and conversations. I taught a first/second split one year with a wide range of abilities. I think this is doable or at least worth a try. Mike

I am the one in my classroom who has held the students back when it comes to discussions. I have never felt comfortable in book clubs myself and I think that had followed me into my classroom. I feel safe asking questions that are a basic retell of facts from the story but I guess I doubted the ability of my students to go much deeper than that without having given them a chance. I guess there have been many instances where the answers seem so "out there," so far off base, or not even related to the text that I hate to even open that door. Now, I feel that after reading the bullets on pages 231-232 I will have better responses to get the class back into the text. One point I want to focus on is having a copy of the text in at least each partnership's hands so that they can refer back and prove their points. --Jodee Tuttle

Bookmarks created from this book for easy future reference... //Bookmarks are coming soon from this chapter...//

// In addition to the questions and thoughts above, here is a place to post other ideas and burning questions from chapter twelve, if any... //**